1 00:00:12,820 --> 00:00:09,880 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:12,830 with NYU psychology professor dr. Gary 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:15,170 Marcus about his work in cognitive 4 00:00:20,350 --> 00:00:18,530 neuroscience in consciousness I don't 5 00:00:22,930 --> 00:00:20,360 doubt that there's a phenomenon that 6 00:00:25,150 --> 00:00:22,940 needs to be explained but I doubt that 7 00:00:26,470 --> 00:00:25,160 the explanation is that the brain is not 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:26,480 part of the experience that's being 9 00:00:30,130 --> 00:00:28,370 processed again but isn't that where it 10 00:00:31,750 --> 00:00:30,140 gets interesting I mean these guys are 11 00:00:34,450 --> 00:00:31,760 coming at it strictly from a medical 12 00:00:37,299 --> 00:00:34,460 standpoint and saying look the guy died 13 00:00:39,430 --> 00:00:37,309 on my table and then told me what 14 00:00:41,619 --> 00:00:39,440 happened during resuscitation that's 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:41,629 about a mystery that defies explanation 16 00:00:45,729 --> 00:00:43,850 in our current paradigm isn't that where 17 00:00:47,470 --> 00:00:45,739 we start even more parsimonious 18 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:47,480 explanation is the guy wasn't really 19 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:48,890 dead on the table there was more stuff 20 00:00:52,930 --> 00:00:50,570 happening in the brain than you realize 21 00:00:54,430 --> 00:00:52,940 because it's parsimonious because it 22 00:00:55,630 --> 00:00:54,440 fits with everything else we understand 23 00:00:57,309 --> 00:00:55,640 about the brain otherwise you have to 24 00:00:59,559 --> 00:00:57,319 invent a new causal mechanism or not 25 00:01:01,090 --> 00:00:59,569 saying that that's wrong but I think the 26 00:01:13,969 --> 00:01:01,100 standards for doing that need to be high 27 00:01:17,789 --> 00:01:16,200 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 28 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:17,799 controversial science with leading 29 00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:20,290 researchers thinkers and their critics 30 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:22,720 I'm your host Alex Karras and as you 31 00:01:27,330 --> 00:01:25,210 just heard my guest today is dr. Gary 32 00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:27,340 Marcus now this is one of those 33 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:30,430 interviews that requires a bit of an 34 00:01:37,109 --> 00:01:34,090 explanation not so much for the content 35 00:01:40,289 --> 00:01:37,119 of the interview but for why I would 36 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:40,299 even choose to interview dr. Marcus in 37 00:01:44,550 --> 00:01:42,250 the first place but that explanation 38 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:44,560 should really come at the end and that's 39 00:01:51,690 --> 00:01:47,200 where I've put it so for now here's my 40 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:51,700 interview with dr. Gary Marcus today we 41 00:01:57,570 --> 00:01:54,550 welcome NYU psychology professor and 42 00:02:00,300 --> 00:01:57,580 best-selling author dr. Gary Marcus - 43 00:02:03,149 --> 00:02:00,310 skeptic Oh dr. Marcus is the director of 44 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:03,159 the NYU Center for language in music 45 00:02:08,729 --> 00:02:05,770 which is a nice fit with his recent New 46 00:02:10,910 --> 00:02:08,739 York Times bestseller guitar zero the 47 00:02:13,830 --> 00:02:10,920 science of becoming Musical at any age 48 00:02:16,530 --> 00:02:13,840 dr. Marcus I should mention also has 49 00:02:18,539 --> 00:02:16,540 many impressive scientific publications 50 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:18,549 to his credit but he's one of those guys 51 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:21,070 that also writes about psychology and 52 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:23,769 consciousness for the rest of us in 53 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:26,290 places like the New York Times The Wall 54 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:28,570 Street Journal and The New Yorker where 55 00:02:33,569 --> 00:02:30,910 he blogs about neuroscience psychology 56 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:33,579 and artificial intelligence 57 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:35,530 dr. Marcus it's a great pleasure to 58 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:37,450 welcome you to skeptic oh thanks so much 59 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:39,489 for joining me thanks very much for 60 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:42,510 having me you've written several 61 00:02:47,550 --> 00:02:45,010 fascinating books dealing with brain 62 00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:47,560 science and I guess consciousness prior 63 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:50,590 to guitar zero you published Cluj and 64 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:52,570 you've published a couple of interesting 65 00:02:58,259 --> 00:02:55,180 posts on the New Yorker that you sent me 66 00:03:00,900 --> 00:02:58,269 one titled the riddle of consciousness 67 00:03:02,789 --> 00:03:00,910 why don't we start there can you tell us 68 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:02,799 a little bit about the riddle of 69 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:05,230 consciousness well it's not one of these 70 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:06,609 riddles where we know the answer I'll 71 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:08,200 tell you that much 72 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:09,910 what I tried to do with that piece was 73 00:03:15,509 --> 00:03:12,250 was to simply lay out some of the issues 74 00:03:17,039 --> 00:03:15,519 starting in the context of a question 75 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:17,049 about whether babies have consciousness 76 00:03:21,229 --> 00:03:19,120 which is very salient to me because I 77 00:03:23,099 --> 00:03:21,239 have a young baby who's five months old 78 00:03:25,770 --> 00:03:23,109 congratulations by the way is it your 79 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:25,780 first it's our first 80 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:28,750 and also as it so happens there was an 81 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:31,780 article in science pretty recently I'm 82 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:33,580 doing in the experimental study trying 83 00:03:37,380 --> 00:03:35,410 to get at whether babies have 84 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:37,390 consciousness so I use that as a 85 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:39,220 stepping off point to look at how you 86 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:41,050 might measure consciousness what it 87 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:43,300 might be you know whether you can study 88 00:03:47,580 --> 00:03:45,160 it in the lab whether anybody knows what 89 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:47,590 it is I didn't take a strong stand I 90 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:49,090 should say and I don't have a strong 91 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:51,370 stand myself I think I said somewhere in 92 00:03:55,110 --> 00:03:52,330 that piece that I've written about 93 00:03:58,190 --> 00:03:55,120 thirty pieces for The New Yorker and on 94 00:04:00,810 --> 00:03:58,200 all kinds of things ranging from quantum 95 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:00,820 computation into God in Super Mario and 96 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:02,890 I think that consciousness is probably 97 00:04:06,570 --> 00:04:04,810 the one that I'm least certain about so 98 00:04:08,250 --> 00:04:06,580 I'm known for taking strong views on 99 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:08,260 things and that's one where I'm not 100 00:04:11,250 --> 00:04:09,220 really sure what the answer is 101 00:04:13,470 --> 00:04:11,260 great great well I think that's a fun 102 00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:13,480 area to kind of probe something that you 103 00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:15,660 haven't settled one way or another 104 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:17,470 consciousness is something we've really 105 00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:20,410 dug into a lot on this show and have had 106 00:04:23,969 --> 00:04:21,850 the opportunity to speak with some 107 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:23,979 leading consciousness researchers you 108 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:25,990 mentioned in your article Christophe 109 00:04:32,219 --> 00:04:29,710 Kaku I think is quite well-known in this 110 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:32,229 field and here's what I wanted to try 111 00:04:36,810 --> 00:04:34,720 and probe a little bit and that is the 112 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:36,820 general trend that we've found that I've 113 00:04:42,090 --> 00:04:39,010 found in this area of consciousness is 114 00:04:44,570 --> 00:04:42,100 these very mainstream guys pulling back 115 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:44,580 a little bit from this one-to-one 116 00:04:51,930 --> 00:04:49,030 reductionism between mind and brain [\h__\h] 117 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:51,940 and that interview actually says here's 118 00:04:56,730 --> 00:04:53,950 his quote I take the point of view that 119 00:05:01,020 --> 00:04:56,740 ultimately consciousness is something 120 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:01,030 real it's ontological II distinct so I 121 00:05:04,529 --> 00:05:02,890 was wondering I understand you're up in 122 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:04,539 the air on this but where do you come 123 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:08,020 down on this issue is everything that we 124 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:10,900 are our deepest longings the love that 125 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:12,910 you feel for that little newborn of 126 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:16,210 yours is everything just brain firing 127 00:05:23,159 --> 00:05:19,930 are we biological robots or is this 128 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:23,169 consciousness onto logically distinct 129 00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:24,850 perhaps any thoughts on that 130 00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:29,380 I guess two parts the first is I'm with 131 00:05:33,420 --> 00:05:31,000 Christoph other your quote doesn't quite 132 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:33,430 reveal it in thinking that whatever the 133 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:35,950 answer is it is biological it is about 134 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:37,900 how our brains work I would maybe 135 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:39,610 broaden that to say there could be thing 136 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:41,050 beyond neurons firing then we don't 137 00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:42,580 understand about the physiology of the 138 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:44,740 brain but I'm pretty confident and I 139 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:46,090 think Kristoff would agree we were 140 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:47,409 actually on a panel on consciousness 141 00:05:52,439 --> 00:05:50,530 last week I think we were in pretty 142 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:52,449 strong agreement that whatever it is 143 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:55,060 it's a property to the brain now what 144 00:05:57,689 --> 00:05:56,860 kind of property it is of the brain is a 145 00:06:00,869 --> 00:05:57,699 different question 146 00:06:03,209 --> 00:06:00,879 now what the ontological status of it is 147 00:06:05,730 --> 00:06:03,219 is is a kind of open question how you 148 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:05,740 get from neurons to understanding 149 00:06:10,290 --> 00:06:07,240 consciousness is very much an open 150 00:06:11,850 --> 00:06:10,300 question but I don't see a lot of room 151 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:11,860 for some alternative that doesn't have 152 00:06:18,379 --> 00:06:14,770 something to do with the physiology of 153 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:18,389 the brain right perhaps and perhaps I'm 154 00:06:23,969 --> 00:06:21,250 overreaching with ontologically distinct 155 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:23,979 although I have to say in that interview 156 00:06:28,709 --> 00:06:26,050 I think he's making a step in that 157 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:28,719 direction more maybe even than he really 158 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:31,210 realizes let me push this just a tiny 159 00:06:34,649 --> 00:06:32,770 bit further I don't know if you're 160 00:06:38,189 --> 00:06:34,659 familiar with the work of Jeffery 161 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:38,199 Schwartz the UCLA research psychiatrist 162 00:06:44,219 --> 00:06:40,900 who authored the book you are not your 163 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:44,229 brain no no I'm not now as I say he came 164 00:06:48,719 --> 00:06:46,300 up with a very interesting little 165 00:06:50,939 --> 00:06:48,729 experiment that I think probes this in 166 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:50,949 another way he's a psychiatrist 167 00:06:57,510 --> 00:06:54,550 obviously and he deals with patients a 168 00:07:00,360 --> 00:06:57,520 lot of patients who have OCD obsessive 169 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:00,370 compulsive disorder so he set up an 170 00:07:07,230 --> 00:07:02,710 experiment where he had these people do 171 00:07:10,619 --> 00:07:07,240 a mental a mind based meditation and he 172 00:07:14,129 --> 00:07:10,629 did an fMRI before and then after they 173 00:07:15,990 --> 00:07:14,139 did a series of meditations he found one 174 00:07:18,689 --> 00:07:16,000 that their symptoms were somewhat 175 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:18,699 relieved but he also found that their 176 00:07:25,230 --> 00:07:22,750 brain had rewired neuroplasticity in 177 00:07:29,209 --> 00:07:25,240 action and he came to the conclusion as 178 00:07:33,329 --> 00:07:29,219 his title of his book suggests that this 179 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:33,339 self-directed neuroplasticity leads us 180 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:35,110 to the conclusion no other conclusion 181 00:07:38,969 --> 00:07:37,240 that somehow in some way we don't 182 00:07:41,999 --> 00:07:38,979 totally understand you are not your 183 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:42,009 brain your mind is forming your brain 184 00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:46,270 any thoughts on that this sounds a 185 00:07:50,959 --> 00:07:48,940 little bit confused to me actually of 186 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:50,969 course I haven't read the book but I 187 00:07:53,429 --> 00:07:52,870 don't understand how that kind of 188 00:07:56,159 --> 00:07:53,439 evidence 189 00:07:59,669 --> 00:07:56,169 to that conclusion my understanding is 190 00:08:01,979 --> 00:07:59,679 that the mind is essentially a property 191 00:08:03,479 --> 00:08:01,989 of the brain and in fact maybe a better 192 00:08:04,919 --> 00:08:03,489 way to say it is it's a different level 193 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:04,929 of description of what the brain is 194 00:08:11,129 --> 00:08:08,050 doing so your mind is coinciding with 195 00:08:12,869 --> 00:08:11,139 your bird brain you could make 196 00:08:15,749 --> 00:08:12,879 allowances for example for things like 197 00:08:17,549 --> 00:08:15,759 you have a set of nerves and your 198 00:08:19,109 --> 00:08:17,559 stomach and that contributes to your 199 00:08:21,149 --> 00:08:19,119 intellectual state so if you really want 200 00:08:22,589 --> 00:08:21,159 to push it you probably want to say your 201 00:08:24,779 --> 00:08:22,599 mind is a property of your central 202 00:08:26,579 --> 00:08:24,789 nervous system but I don't see how 203 00:08:28,919 --> 00:08:26,589 arguments about for example the brain 204 00:08:30,809 --> 00:08:28,929 being plastic in some way or the nervous 205 00:08:32,429 --> 00:08:30,819 system being plastic in some way takes 206 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:32,439 away from the general conclusion that 207 00:08:36,449 --> 00:08:34,240 the thoughts that you have for example 208 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:36,459 all emerge as a function of the things 209 00:08:41,939 --> 00:08:39,490 that your brain is doing well I think he 210 00:08:43,619 --> 00:08:41,949 points out and I guess an obvious 211 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:43,629 chicken and the egg question we have 212 00:08:51,199 --> 00:08:47,680 there is is mind forming and shaping 213 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:51,209 brain or is brain forming and shaping 214 00:08:56,670 --> 00:08:54,430 mind and if they're interactive which 215 00:08:58,530 --> 00:08:56,680 there clearly are we do have the chicken 216 00:09:02,009 --> 00:08:58,540 in the egg I mean which comes first the 217 00:09:05,129 --> 00:09:02,019 mind or the brain well not if there are 218 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:05,139 different levels of description so you 219 00:09:09,749 --> 00:09:06,850 can for example talk about the function 220 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:09,759 or the action a boulder at a kind of 221 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:11,470 chemical level or you could even go down 222 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:13,060 to the particles you could have laws 223 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:16,060 about geology these things would all be 224 00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:17,410 true and there would be just different 225 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:19,870 perspectives on looking at something at 226 00:09:23,189 --> 00:09:21,250 the same time in some of these 227 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:23,199 generalizations are the ones from 228 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:25,240 geology might be more useful when you're 229 00:09:28,199 --> 00:09:26,620 talking about boulders than the ones 230 00:09:30,030 --> 00:09:28,209 that come from chemistry but that 231 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:30,040 doesn't mean that chemistry doesn't hold 232 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:31,930 of boulders it just means it's easier to 233 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:33,970 talk about things like erosion as you 234 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:35,529 didn't talk about the boulders but 235 00:09:39,569 --> 00:09:37,930 they're all true at the same time and I 236 00:09:40,980 --> 00:09:39,579 think there's a discussion about that 237 00:09:42,740 --> 00:09:40,990 the mind is basically being like 238 00:09:44,610 --> 00:09:42,750 discussion about psychology and 239 00:09:46,079 --> 00:09:44,620 discussion about the brain is basically 240 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:46,089 the province of neuroscience but they're 241 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:48,160 just do different views to different 242 00:09:52,170 --> 00:09:50,470 perspectives on the same thing so it's 243 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:52,180 not that one happens before the other 244 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:53,170 although we can come back to 245 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:55,000 consciousness in a second it's not that 246 00:09:58,920 --> 00:09:57,370 one happens before the other but rather 247 00:10:01,139 --> 00:09:58,930 they happen at the same time they're 248 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:01,149 always at the same time but we can talk 249 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:03,040 about them in more comfortable ways 250 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:04,980 using one vocabulary or the other 251 00:10:10,570 --> 00:10:07,650 so it's not very helpful at the moment 252 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:10,580 maybe some day to talk a whole lot about 253 00:10:14,450 --> 00:10:12,510 individual neurons when you're talking 254 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:14,460 about whether you're hungry or whether 255 00:10:17,930 --> 00:10:16,290 you think it would be interesting to 256 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:17,940 walk across the street to see a concert 257 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:20,130 that's playing there you know it's 258 00:10:22,910 --> 00:10:21,510 easier to talk about these things in 259 00:10:24,830 --> 00:10:22,920 terms of psychology that rather than 260 00:10:25,970 --> 00:10:24,840 referring to specific sets of neurons 261 00:10:27,710 --> 00:10:25,980 but when you want to go across the 262 00:10:29,420 --> 00:10:27,720 street to see that concert there's some 263 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:29,430 set of neurons firing or doing something 264 00:10:32,570 --> 00:10:31,350 that corresponds to that and it's not 265 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:32,580 that you have the thought and then the 266 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:35,910 neurons fire I guess the point I'm 267 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:37,530 making and I understand you're on the 268 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:39,990 other camp but there's a growing number 269 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:41,910 of people that are putting a big maybe 270 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:44,570 on what you just said and that there's a 271 00:10:49,130 --> 00:10:47,550 potential that we could look at things 272 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:49,140 the other way and that there is this 273 00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:52,710 mind and that it is fundamental and the 274 00:10:58,130 --> 00:10:55,860 brain is somehow being formed by that 275 00:10:59,780 --> 00:10:58,140 mind are interacting with that mind in a 276 00:11:02,840 --> 00:10:59,790 way that keeps the consciousness 277 00:11:04,460 --> 00:11:02,850 fundamental so I don't think I think I 278 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:04,470 think that that's an odd view but I'll 279 00:11:08,390 --> 00:11:06,720 tell you what I think might be plausible 280 00:11:10,940 --> 00:11:08,400 in those parts is if you want to talk 281 00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:10,950 about consciousness in particular well 282 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:13,980 there our conscious awareness takes time 283 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:16,200 to happen so you see something and it 284 00:11:20,060 --> 00:11:18,510 takes a matter of a hundred milliseconds 285 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:20,070 or a couple seconds maybe depending on 286 00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:22,890 the context before that percolates into 287 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:24,270 your consciousness so there are 288 00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:26,730 processes in the brain that take time 289 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:30,960 and before those things happen you may 290 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:32,730 not be consciously aware of them that's 291 00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:34,770 the closest I can come to accepting kind 292 00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:36,720 of you that you talked about which is to 293 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:38,790 say that a certain aspect of your mind 294 00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:41,010 and perhaps lots of the aspects of your 295 00:11:45,770 --> 00:11:43,200 mind are in some sense the output of 296 00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:45,780 processes that happen in your brain but 297 00:11:48,350 --> 00:11:46,620 I don't think that they're really 298 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:48,360 separable per se in that way it's just 299 00:11:53,810 --> 00:11:51,060 that you know certain reflexes take 300 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:53,820 longer than others I get what you're 301 00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:56,310 saying can we talk about and I don't 302 00:12:01,160 --> 00:11:58,110 want to totally probe these areas that 303 00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:01,170 you haven't looked at at all but most of 304 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:03,270 the people I've talked to in the 305 00:12:10,070 --> 00:12:07,070 consciousness research field including 306 00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:10,080 Christoph Kok but also including Stuart 307 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:11,820 Hameroff at the University Arizona are 308 00:12:16,190 --> 00:12:13,410 you familiar at all with his work a 309 00:12:18,290 --> 00:12:16,200 little bit okay so when you talk to 310 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:18,300 those people one thing that comes up a 311 00:12:21,050 --> 00:12:18,810 hot tub 312 00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:21,060 pick is near-death experience science 313 00:12:25,150 --> 00:12:23,340 because clearly there's these folks over 314 00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:25,160 these medical people that saying 315 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:27,600 near-death experience is happening and 316 00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:29,970 there's no brain activity and that 317 00:12:33,830 --> 00:12:31,800 suggests the same thing that we're 318 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:33,840 talking about that somehow consciousness 319 00:12:39,710 --> 00:12:37,020 is more than mere brain activity as a 320 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:39,720 matter of fact when I asked Hameroff on 321 00:12:45,470 --> 00:12:43,170 this this is the quote that he gave me 322 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:45,480 and he said after having reviewed the 323 00:12:49,940 --> 00:12:47,490 near-death experience research and kind 324 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:49,950 of being I think favorably impressed 325 00:12:53,780 --> 00:12:50,940 with it 326 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:53,790 he says I've been asked if it's possible 327 00:12:59,360 --> 00:12:56,610 that consciousness can exist outside the 328 00:13:01,550 --> 00:12:59,370 brain in the case when the brain has 329 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:01,560 stopped being perfused and the heart has 330 00:13:06,829 --> 00:13:04,470 stopped and so forth I think we can't 331 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:06,839 rule that out and if you read the full 332 00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:09,240 quote he's actually kind of dived into 333 00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:11,040 the near-death experience research and I 334 00:13:16,579 --> 00:13:13,580 think is generally accepting of the 335 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:16,589 medical mystery that it is is this 336 00:13:22,190 --> 00:13:20,130 something that you feel is relevant at 337 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:22,200 all to your work or to these questions 338 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:25,230 of consciousness well I mean I should 339 00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:26,850 say that my core research isn't in 340 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:29,310 consciousness so I should be careful 341 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:31,140 about what I say my work is but I think 342 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:33,480 that any kind of altered experience is 343 00:13:38,810 --> 00:13:35,370 potentially relevant to understanding 344 00:13:41,060 --> 00:13:38,820 consciousness I think that the whole 345 00:13:44,329 --> 00:13:41,070 field suffers for a lack of independent 346 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:44,339 measures of what consciousness is so you 347 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:46,170 can for example imagine doing various 348 00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:48,210 kinds of experiments where you run brain 349 00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,950 imaging or something like that and then 350 00:13:54,380 --> 00:13:51,839 you say well is this conscious or not 351 00:13:56,660 --> 00:13:54,390 and it depends very much on what your 352 00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:56,670 measurement of consciousness is so for 353 00:14:00,110 --> 00:13:57,720 example you might want to do those 354 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:00,120 experiments by comparing cats or maybe 355 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:01,770 monkeys or something like that to human 356 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:04,020 beings so you look at this brain area 357 00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:06,480 and then you say and the cat is you know 358 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:07,980 more conscious or less conscious but we 359 00:14:09,770 --> 00:14:09,150 don't really have an independent way to 360 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:09,780 say that 361 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:13,650 so Christophe cook is for many reasons 362 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:15,900 persuaded that animals are conscious but 363 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,450 not everybody is persuaded and I think 364 00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:19,680 it's an open question because we don't 365 00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:21,740 have a machine or a measure that 366 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:24,390 decisively answers that so when you want 367 00:14:27,710 --> 00:14:25,950 to tell me that someone with a 368 00:14:29,630 --> 00:14:27,720 near-death experience is conscious at a 369 00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:29,640 particular moment when their brain 370 00:14:32,660 --> 00:14:32,040 appears not to be functioning we need to 371 00:14:33,710 --> 00:14:32,670 know a little bit 372 00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:33,720 more about what it means for the brain 373 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:35,580 not to be functioning but we also need 374 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:37,350 to know more about why we think the 375 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:38,580 person's actually conscious in that 376 00:14:42,650 --> 00:14:40,920 moment I mean maybe for example the 377 00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:42,660 person is reconstructing afterwards 378 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:43,920 believing that they were conscious and 379 00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:45,450 they weren't in that moment you know I 380 00:14:48,410 --> 00:14:46,860 would take the position that you're not 381 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:48,420 conscious when you're asleep again 382 00:14:52,130 --> 00:14:50,310 there's this reason for people to argue 383 00:14:53,510 --> 00:14:52,140 about that but I would take the position 384 00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:53,520 that you're not and then you do some 385 00:14:55,940 --> 00:14:55,110 reconstruction after the fact about what 386 00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,950 you might have been doing when you're 387 00:14:59,870 --> 00:14:57,120 sleeping maybe that's the same thing 388 00:15:02,090 --> 00:14:59,880 going on there I don't want to push that 389 00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:02,100 too far because I'm not sure that that's 390 00:15:07,130 --> 00:15:04,260 an area you've looked into but of course 391 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:07,140 the published research on that suggests 392 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:08,880 otherwise suggested it isn't 393 00:15:14,060 --> 00:15:11,010 reconstruction because there are these 394 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:14,070 memories during a time of resuscitation 395 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:16,350 when the brain is severely compromised 396 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:20,310 whatever so what I hear you saying is 397 00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:22,290 what you're advocating or what you're 398 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:24,260 interested in and I read this in your 399 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:27,330 New Yorker post is this idea of 400 00:15:32,690 --> 00:15:30,510 measuring consciousness well there I 401 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:32,700 wrote I wrote a somewhat skeptical piece 402 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:34,530 so Christof Koch who I have a lot of 403 00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:39,330 respect for and Giulio Tononi have this 404 00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:40,980 interesting measure it's really to Nonis 405 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:43,350 first called Phi that is supposed to be 406 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:45,150 a measure of how conscious you are at 407 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:46,830 least that's what they purported to be 408 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:49,170 and in my most recent piece in The New 409 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:52,410 Yorker I went through what I understand 410 00:15:55,940 --> 00:15:53,730 the measure to be the measure is itself 411 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:55,950 pretty complicated and then some reasons 412 00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:57,210 why I'm not sure that it's actually 413 00:16:00,950 --> 00:15:58,740 picking out consciousness as opposed to 414 00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,960 some other things so you can have a 415 00:16:04,390 --> 00:16:02,160 measure but not know what your measure 416 00:16:06,650 --> 00:16:04,400 is for they have some arguments for why 417 00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:06,660 the measure might reflect something 418 00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:09,030 about consciousness so particularly the 419 00:16:13,370 --> 00:16:11,150 measure is about integrating information 420 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:13,380 among other things so they they have 421 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:15,890 this pretty hard to calculate measure of 422 00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:18,600 how integrated information is and they 423 00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:20,790 say the more that information is 424 00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:22,590 integrated in a particular system and 425 00:16:26,810 --> 00:16:24,630 I'm not going into all the details the 426 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:26,820 more conscious that system is and to 427 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:28,530 first approximation this seems okay 428 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:31,710 because for example it predicts that a 429 00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:34,350 digital camera or at least the the CCD 430 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:36,420 sensor and it is not conscious that a 431 00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:38,430 cat might be somewhat conscious and that 432 00:16:42,410 --> 00:16:39,720 human being will be more conscious 433 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:42,420 because the the CCG doesn't integrate 434 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:44,640 any information of the right sort the 435 00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:46,420 cat integrates some the person 436 00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:49,300 presumably integrates even more but I'm 437 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:50,620 not sure that it actually makes the 438 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:52,630 right predictions in general and it 439 00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:53,800 might actually be more like a measure of 440 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:55,600 intelligence than a measure of 441 00:16:59,970 --> 00:16:57,450 consciousness per se 442 00:17:03,269 --> 00:16:59,980 dr. Marcus once you tell us what's going 443 00:17:06,809 --> 00:17:03,279 on with you in your lab and also any 444 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:06,819 upcoming books you might have well the 445 00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:08,650 next book I have is gonna be called the 446 00:17:12,510 --> 00:17:10,750 future of the brain and it's gonna be an 447 00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:12,520 edited collection I'll be doing the 448 00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,870 editing with Jeremy Freeman 449 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:15,760 we have contributions by a lot of 450 00:17:19,409 --> 00:17:17,140 eminent neuroscientists like Christof 451 00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:19,419 Koch in fact Koch and I in fact are 452 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:20,760 gonna write the afterword together 453 00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:22,809 that's gonna be a really exciting book 454 00:17:27,449 --> 00:17:24,130 that will be out in April so that's my 455 00:17:29,159 --> 00:17:27,459 next book and lab wise I just published 456 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:29,169 a paper in Nature with overture knock 457 00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:31,540 off Sookie and Dena Lipkin looking at 458 00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:34,360 how songbirds acquire their vocalization 459 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:36,190 patterns and suggesting that there's 460 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:37,570 actually something in common between the 461 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:41,110 songbirds and human children anything 462 00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:43,030 else we might want to touch on before we 463 00:17:48,810 --> 00:17:46,240 wrap things up I know that's all thanks 464 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:48,820 very much for having me great I didn't 465 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:50,770 want to push that NDE stuff too much 466 00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:52,510 because you're not that's not your thing 467 00:17:57,870 --> 00:17:55,480 right near-death expel all so very very 468 00:18:01,140 --> 00:17:57,880 skeptical of it I mean it doesn't make 469 00:18:02,430 --> 00:18:01,150 sense to me to be honest it doesn't fit 470 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,440 with the rest of the stuff that I 471 00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:04,320 understand about how the brain works 472 00:18:09,390 --> 00:18:07,660 which leads me to believe that something 473 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:09,400 is likely being misinterpreted I can't 474 00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:12,010 promise that and I haven't read every 475 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:15,220 every word on it but have you read any 476 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:17,650 word on it I mean have you read any of 477 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:20,049 the leading guys out there I mean I've 478 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:21,610 read a few words here there but it 479 00:18:25,289 --> 00:18:23,290 doesn't make sense to me I mean you'd be 480 00:18:26,909 --> 00:18:25,299 like you asking me have I read anything 481 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:26,919 on astrology I mean I know about 482 00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:28,690 astrology but I don't see the causal 483 00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:31,600 mechanism yeah but it's not really 484 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:33,520 astrology I mean you got these you got 485 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:37,210 parney at Cornell you got the University 486 00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:39,370 of Virginia guys I mean you got a lot of 487 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:42,280 pretty well respected people who've 488 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:43,809 studied it for a long time and are 489 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:46,090 publishing you know Bruce Grace and all 490 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:48,250 those folks I don't doubt that there's a 491 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:50,710 phenomenon that it needs to be explained 492 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:52,960 but I doubt the phenomenon I doubt that 493 00:18:56,669 --> 00:18:55,330 the explanation is that the brain is not 494 00:18:59,039 --> 00:18:56,679 part of the experience that's being 495 00:19:00,060 --> 00:18:59,049 processed I cannot conceive of how that 496 00:19:01,170 --> 00:19:00,070 would be true 497 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:01,180 again but isn't that where it gets 498 00:19:04,740 --> 00:19:03,010 interesting I mean these guys are coming 499 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:04,750 at it strictly from a medical standpoint 500 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:08,530 and saying you know look the guy died on 501 00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,290 my table and then told me what happened 502 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:13,600 during resuscitation that's a medical 503 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:17,110 mystery that defies explanation in our 504 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:19,530 current paradigm isn't it where we start 505 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:22,060 even more parsimonious explanation is 506 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:23,710 the guy wasn't really dead on the table 507 00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:25,090 there was more stuff happening in the 508 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:27,340 brain than you realize because it's 509 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:28,900 parsimonious because it fits with 510 00:19:31,740 --> 00:19:30,280 everything else we understand about the 511 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:31,750 brain otherwise you have to invent a new 512 00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:33,400 causal mechanism or not saying that 513 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:35,620 that's wrong but I think the standards 514 00:19:39,420 --> 00:19:37,750 for doing that need to be high I hear 515 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:39,430 you but who would we go to ask that 516 00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:42,250 question we'd go to cardiologist tim van 517 00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:43,900 LOM well the guy I told you published in 518 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:46,420 The Lancet who works with patients on 519 00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:48,610 that table or would go with Sam Parr Nia 520 00:19:54,570 --> 00:19:51,220 who's clinical work he's the expert 521 00:19:56,370 --> 00:19:54,580 worldwide expert in resuscitation so I 522 00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,380 mean those are the people we'd go to so 523 00:20:00,840 --> 00:19:58,480 if they become convinced well how would 524 00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:00,850 sooner goes to a neuroscientist than a 525 00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:03,460 cardiologist actually well in terms of 526 00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:06,790 knowing the state of the brain right I 527 00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:09,550 mean you there may be things about brain 528 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:11,680 function that we don't understand so 529 00:20:15,930 --> 00:20:13,420 even if the heart is not pumping there 530 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:15,940 may be things that are allowing some 531 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:18,070 neural function for some period of time 532 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:20,380 to continue and it's also the 533 00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:22,240 possibility as I mentioned great tell us 534 00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:24,190 what it is there's a mystery there that 535 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:26,440 seems like we're not probing I mean okay 536 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:28,090 so you postulate that that's possible 537 00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:30,490 well I I'm not proving it's not it's not 538 00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:33,660 my field but that isn't nobody's promi 539 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:36,220 thanks again to dr. Marcus for joining 540 00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,650 me today on skeptic oh so as I mentioned 541 00:20:44,730 --> 00:20:41,200 at the beginning you might be wondering 542 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:44,740 why I would interview dr. Gary Marcus 543 00:20:51,180 --> 00:20:47,050 well the reason I did is because I think 544 00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:51,190 this is the kind of dialogue that is so 545 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:54,100 often missing among these conversations 546 00:20:59,100 --> 00:20:56,290 and interviews that we have about these 547 00:21:02,670 --> 00:20:59,110 big picture important scientific issues 548 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:02,680 it is messy it is a little bit 549 00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:06,250 uncomfortable I get that I also get that 550 00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:09,820 my positions ie that scientific 551 00:21:13,769 --> 00:21:12,820 materialism has been falsified that mind 552 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:13,779 equals brain 553 00:21:19,469 --> 00:21:16,690 is a joke and it's contradicted by so 554 00:21:22,979 --> 00:21:19,479 much data out there I get that that's 555 00:21:24,779 --> 00:21:22,989 not the mainstream view and that Gary 556 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:24,789 Marcus even though I think he has this 557 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:28,210 head in the sand is representative of 558 00:21:34,889 --> 00:21:31,570 the mainstream view so I do feel that it 559 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:34,899 is my obligation to reach out and engage 560 00:21:40,979 --> 00:21:38,289 with people like dr. Marcus and have 561 00:21:43,409 --> 00:21:40,989 this dialogue in at least a somewhat non 562 00:21:45,539 --> 00:21:43,419 confrontational way of meeting in the 563 00:21:47,849 --> 00:21:45,549 middle kind of way and that's what I 564 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:47,859 sought to do but if you've listened to 565 00:21:53,219 --> 00:21:50,710 this show you know that that often 566 00:21:56,369 --> 00:21:53,229 doesn't work out I mean we are talking 567 00:21:58,969 --> 00:21:56,379 about challenging power and challenging 568 00:22:01,739 --> 00:21:58,979 worldviews and that's often very 569 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:01,749 unsettling for folks as was the case 570 00:22:05,879 --> 00:22:03,609 with dr. Marcus you could hear it in his 571 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:05,889 own of his voice as well as the content 572 00:22:11,219 --> 00:22:08,529 of what he was saying now as is often 573 00:22:12,479 --> 00:22:11,229 the case in these kind of interviews 574 00:22:15,299 --> 00:22:12,489 where there's a little bit of heat 575 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:15,309 during the interview I often find that 576 00:22:19,979 --> 00:22:18,190 the follow-up is just as interesting and 577 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:19,989 sometimes even more interesting than the 578 00:22:25,889 --> 00:22:23,289 interview itself and that is the case 579 00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:25,899 with this one let me share with you what 580 00:22:28,619 --> 00:22:27,580 happened after the interview I think 581 00:22:31,709 --> 00:22:28,629 it's very telling 582 00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:31,719 so I sent dr. Marcus an email thanking 583 00:22:35,759 --> 00:22:33,580 him for the interview and sending up 584 00:22:38,219 --> 00:22:35,769 some links some references first I sent 585 00:22:40,019 --> 00:22:38,229 a link to Bruce Grayson of course his 586 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:40,029 professor of psychiatry at the 587 00:22:44,999 --> 00:22:42,450 University of Virginia and has studied 588 00:22:47,310 --> 00:22:45,009 near-death experience probably more than 589 00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:47,320 anyone has published over 20 years many 590 00:22:52,499 --> 00:22:50,080 many peer-reviewed highly respected 591 00:22:54,239 --> 00:22:52,509 articles have been published by him on 592 00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:54,249 near-death experience he's one of the 593 00:22:59,539 --> 00:22:56,950 co-authors editors of the handbook of 594 00:23:02,039 --> 00:22:59,549 near-death experience a very scholarly 595 00:23:04,169 --> 00:23:02,049 compilation of some of the best research 596 00:23:06,719 --> 00:23:04,179 that's been done so I sent him that I 597 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:06,729 also sent him a link to dr. Sam Parr Nia 598 00:23:13,169 --> 00:23:10,210 again another highly respected medical 599 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:13,179 academic medical person who's published 600 00:23:17,969 --> 00:23:15,460 in this field as you know has kind of 601 00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:17,979 changed his position was initially more 602 00:23:22,769 --> 00:23:20,320 skeptical of near-death experience but 603 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:22,779 was overwhelmed by just the body of 604 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:24,840 evidence to saying that 605 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:27,870 is suggestive that the mind equals brain 606 00:23:33,470 --> 00:23:31,129 kind of paradigm that dr. Marcus so 607 00:23:35,779 --> 00:23:33,480 supports and is so much at the core of 608 00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,789 dr. Marcus's belief system of course 609 00:23:39,769 --> 00:23:37,440 parney has come around and said hey 610 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:39,779 that's just not the way that it is so 611 00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:42,690 here was the reply that I got from dr. 612 00:23:47,869 --> 00:23:45,960 Marcus first he suggested that the quote 613 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:47,879 from Greyson that I sent him was 614 00:23:54,889 --> 00:23:51,210 actually consistent with what he said 615 00:23:57,919 --> 00:23:54,899 that impaired cerebral perfusion does 616 00:23:59,570 --> 00:23:57,929 not equal a complete cessation of brain 617 00:24:01,159 --> 00:23:59,580 function okay you've heard this a 618 00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,169 million times from the near-death 619 00:24:05,389 --> 00:24:03,840 experience skeptics and that is hey we 620 00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:05,399 don't know there still might be 621 00:24:08,989 --> 00:24:07,470 something going on deep in that brain 622 00:24:11,419 --> 00:24:08,999 that it could explain the near-death 623 00:24:14,899 --> 00:24:11,429 experience of course that's complete 624 00:24:16,369 --> 00:24:14,909 nonsense and I pointed that out to him 625 00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,379 in the following email which I'll get to 626 00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:18,480 him in a minute but his second point I 627 00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:19,679 thought was interesting because he 628 00:24:24,139 --> 00:24:21,869 obviously after our interview did a more 629 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:24,149 thorough search of skeptic oh and he 630 00:24:29,989 --> 00:24:27,690 says I felt a little bit sandbagged in 631 00:24:33,379 --> 00:24:29,999 that the interview was too far from my 632 00:24:36,289 --> 00:24:33,389 areas of expertise folks go look on his 633 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:36,299 blog on The New Yorker and see if you 634 00:24:40,669 --> 00:24:38,730 really think this is far from his area 635 00:24:43,249 --> 00:24:40,679 of expertise it's not 636 00:24:45,379 --> 00:24:43,259 he's just ducking for cover and then he 637 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:45,389 concludes by saying I think the best 638 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:47,490 thing to do is to shelve the interview 639 00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,610 completely and he says I hope that 640 00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:53,279 you'll respect my wishes well 641 00:25:00,590 --> 00:24:57,840 respectfully dr. Marcus I cannot respect 642 00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:00,600 your wishes and am publishing the 643 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:02,820 interview along with my response to 644 00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:04,830 those rather silly comments that you 645 00:25:08,930 --> 00:25:07,230 made there so first and this is the 646 00:25:12,109 --> 00:25:08,940 email that I sent him back I said 647 00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:12,119 regarding Grayson his conclusions as the 648 00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:14,580 result of his 20-plus years of research 649 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:16,769 in the field of near-death experience 650 00:25:21,619 --> 00:25:18,990 are the opposite of yours ie 651 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:21,629 consciousness survive slash exists in 652 00:25:26,779 --> 00:25:24,210 brains that are dead slash severely 653 00:25:28,909 --> 00:25:26,789 compromised that is Grayson's conclusion 654 00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:28,919 by the way then I added I don't think 655 00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:31,230 you're in concurrence with his findings 656 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:34,710 are you secondly I added regarding being 657 00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:38,730 sandbagged come on I can hardly imagine 658 00:25:42,669 --> 00:25:40,470 I could have given you more to prepare 659 00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:42,679 for this interview now I set him 660 00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:43,830 everything 661 00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:46,500 I sent him not only links to all the 662 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,900 previous shows but I highlighted direct 663 00:25:51,770 --> 00:25:50,400 links to some of the shows that I 664 00:25:54,740 --> 00:25:51,780 thought would be most relevant I 665 00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:54,750 outlined questions forum topics all that 666 00:26:00,890 --> 00:25:58,020 stuff for him to dig up this idea that 667 00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:00,900 he was somehow sandbag is just 668 00:26:04,820 --> 00:26:02,790 preposterous but then hey I've heard 669 00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:04,830 that so many times by now that it 670 00:26:09,049 --> 00:26:07,260 doesn't really faze me I added that 671 00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:09,059 moreover I don't think you came off 672 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,940 poorly in any way I mean you came off as 673 00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:14,640 kind of dogmatic about this mind equals 674 00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:16,980 brain paradigm but then that's the 675 00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:19,679 status quo view then I added a link to 676 00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:21,030 Steven Schwartz's book on 677 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:23,880 neuroplasticity the questions that since 678 00:26:29,409 --> 00:26:26,330 he's shown that self-directed 679 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:29,419 neuroplasticity can change your brain 680 00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,100 then were left with this chicken or the 681 00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:34,799 egg question of which came first the 682 00:26:40,159 --> 00:26:38,160 brain or the thought a question that he 683 00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:40,169 never really answered in our discussion 684 00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:42,360 so I thought I'd bring that up but of 685 00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:46,049 course that was the last I was to hear 686 00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:49,740 from dr. Marcus despite my questions he 687 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,500 chose to kind of end it there with hopes 688 00:26:58,190 --> 00:26:54,960 that this whole thing might just go away 689 00:27:00,350 --> 00:26:58,200 but I don't want it to go away in fact I 690 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:00,360 want to dig deeper and the best way for 691 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:02,700 us to dig deeper are to continue asking 692 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:05,490 questions so let's ask a couple of 693 00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,370 questions about this interview and I'm 694 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:10,559 just going to focus on one and that has 695 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:12,960 to do with the clip that I pulled out to 696 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:15,690 introduce this interview dr. Marcus has 697 00:27:20,659 --> 00:27:17,610 claimed that the most parsimonious 698 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:20,669 explanation for near-death experience is 699 00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:23,910 that that there was more going on in the 700 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:26,880 brain during resuscitation then the 701 00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:29,490 doctor realized what do you think about 702 00:27:34,159 --> 00:27:31,980 that as an explanation for the 703 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:34,169 near-death experience research and for 704 00:27:38,299 --> 00:27:36,090 all the science that we have on that I 705 00:27:41,419 --> 00:27:38,309 think I know your answer but since a 706 00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:41,429 highly respected guy like New York 707 00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:44,220 University's best-selling author dr. 708 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:47,040 Gary Marcus has pushed that forward as 709 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:49,710 his explanation I think it deserves to 710 00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:50,900 be hash 711 00:27:55,180 --> 00:27:53,840 doubt here on skeptic oh so the place to 712 00:28:00,280 --> 00:27:55,190 do that of course is on The Skeptical 713 00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:00,290 website at SK EPT Iko calm or you can 714 00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:01,940 leave a message right on the comment 715 00:28:07,180 --> 00:28:05,030 section or click over to the forum where 716 00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:07,190 there's usually more activity and you 717 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:09,500 can join with others in this discussion 718 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:11,660 while you're there on skeptic Oh be sure 719 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:14,090 to check out all our over 200 previous 720 00:28:18,550 --> 00:28:16,730 shows you can subscribe on iTunes you 721 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:18,560 can of course tell as many of your 722 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:21,050 friends on Facebook and everywhere else 723 00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:23,510 through your blogs about this episode 724 00:28:27,790 --> 00:28:25,670 and other episodes of skeptic oh and I 725 00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:27,800 hope that you do that I want to let you 726 00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:29,590 know that I'm working on a number of 727 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,360 interesting shows coming up kind of a 728 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:34,640 whole batch of them here so they might 729 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:36,650 come out a little bit faster than they 730 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:39,530 have while I get caught up and I'm kind 731 00:28:43,870 --> 00:28:42,110 of looking at different areas and 732 00:28:46,990 --> 00:28:43,880 exploring different things and hopefully 733 00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:47,000 that will lead to some interesting shows 734 00:28:52,420 --> 00:28:50,840 both for me and for you I hope you do 735 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:52,430 stick around for all of that I 736 00:28:57,070 --> 00:28:54,530 appreciate you listening I appreciate 737 00:28:59,980 --> 00:28:57,080 you joining me on this journey and 738 00:29:02,410 --> 00:28:59,990 helping me in my journey which you the 739 00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:02,420 audience really has more than I can ever 740 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:05,390 Express and I'm very grateful for that